• Enduring File Formats

    From Kaelon@VERT to Moondog on Sunday, July 17, 2022 13:21:10
    Re: "Highly profitable" Bay S
    By: Moondog to Kaelon on Sun Jul 17 2022 09:39 am

    Hard copies are nice for that reason. Established digital file formats are also good. The document scanning program used to make the original file was mostlikely created to no digital recording standard, if such thing existed. The program could save as or convert it's paperport format into PDF or TIF, which is more universally accepted since the mid 1990's

    I can get on board a universally accepted file format; TIF, for sure, and even PDF, if Adobe weren't such a squirrelly company. (Remember when Shockwave Flash and .SWF files were the standard for web-games?) I imagine at some point basic unencrypted .TXT files might be the key to longevity. PDF and TIF for now, for sure, but anything that has endured longer than 30-40 years has my vote.
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  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Kaelon on Sunday, July 17, 2022 22:16:00
    Re: Enduring File Formats
    By: Kaelon to Moondog on Sun Jul 17 2022 01:21 pm

    Re: "Highly profitable" Bay S
    By: Moondog to Kaelon on Sun Jul 17 2022 09:39 am

    Hard copies are nice for that reason. Established digital file formats a also good. The document scanning program used to make the original file mostlikely created to no digital recording standard, if such thing existe The program could save as or convert it's paperport format into PDF or TI which is more universally accepted since the mid 1990's

    I can get on board a universally accepted file format; TIF, for sure, and ev XT files might be the key to longevity. PDF and TIF for now, for sure, but _____
    -=: Kaelon :=-


    Caere Paperport scanners had their own format that it saved fiules in by default. Caere was bought up by Caldera, and I haven't seen a copy of their s oftware since the XP days.

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  • From poindexter FORTRAN@VERT/REALITY to Kaelon on Sunday, July 17, 2022 21:35:54
    Re: Enduring File Formats
    By: Kaelon to Moondog on Sun Jul 17 2022 01:21 pm

    (Remember when Shockwave Flash and .SWF files were the standard for
    web-games?)

    Very well. I worked at Macromedia at the time and was part of the technology M&A team that bought a tiny company called FutureWave for something like a million dollars and turned their product into Flash. Best investment I'd ever seen. :)

    Some of the early content created in Director, Shockwave and Flash were pretty amazing. I wish I'd saved some of it.

    The internet archive has some of it saved, including Radiskull and Devil Doll. Look it up. :)



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  • From Kaelon@VERT to Moondog on Monday, July 18, 2022 15:17:07
    Re: Enduring File Formats
    By: Moondog to Kaelon on Sun Jul 17 2022 10:16 pm

    Caere Paperport scanners had their own format that it saved fiules in by default. Caere was bought up by Caldera, and I haven't seen a copy of their s oftware since the XP days.

    Oh my god, talk about two names I haven't heard from in decades. Goes to further prove your point!
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  • From Kaelon@VERT to poindexter FORTRAN on Monday, July 18, 2022 15:22:29
    Re: Enduring File Formats
    By: poindexter FORTRAN to Kaelon on Sun Jul 17 2022 09:35 pm

    Some of the early content created in Director, Shockwave and Flash were pretty amazing. I wish I'd saved some of it.

    The internet archive has some of it saved, including Radiskull and Devil Doll. Look it up. :)

    I absolutely will! Thanks for the callout of some of your creations.

    I remember fondly the countless flash games, many of which never were translated, but laid the foundation for other wonderful HTML5 successors. I'm still bewildered that Adobe just abandoned the format altogether, rather than find a way to partner with Apple for rendering on mobile devices, since it was, after all, Apple that ditched full support for Flash. Much like the entire web, the future (and the majoritarian present today) is purely mobile.
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  • From Kaelon@VERT to Boraxman on Tuesday, July 19, 2022 05:42:04
    Re: "Highly profitable" Bay S
    By: Boraxman to Kaelon on Tue Jul 19 2022 12:16 pm

    I do that with photos which we take which matter to us, we print them into a book, though that is only a fraction of what we've taken.

    I think this comes down to content value. When it was challenging to affix content to a physical format, authors, artists, writers, musicians, and creators throughout history exercised some degree of prioritization and restraint. "Is this important to me? Would it be important to others?" This was a critical viewpoint.

    In the Age of Digital, no such question necessarily needs to be asked. For those of us who grew up around personal computers (I'm looking at you, fellow Gen-X'ers), we still took some degree of care with how we spent our time. But true "digital natives," namely, Millennials and now Gen-Z'ers, are engaged in total digital broadcasting (sometimes derivisively dismissed as 'narcissism'). Every thought, perspective, whisper, scribble, etc., gets "affixed" to a digital format - website, blog, forum, social media stream, photo site, etc.

    TL;DR - Not everything is actually important. So the fact that most of it is lost is not, necessarily, a catastrophic loss for civilization. But it is lost, and future generations will know next to nothing about Geocities, let alone the early days of the Internet.

    I consider myself quite computer literate, having worked as IT support/co-admin, and even I worry about losing data that *I* handle, let alone others. People store their digital photo's on a laptop, one theft away from total loss. Someone I knew had theirs on a harddrive which they spilled liquid or or dropped. My wife had the only copies of many photos on her hard drive, which one day, decided to just die in a puff of smoke (luckily it somehow just worked again months later). Burned DVD's last, usually, but I've been stung by manufacturing defects. How many people use M-DISK? No one really. How many people have their photos managed by iPhoto or something, and have no idea where the files actually are on their drive, or how to access this outside of iPhoto/whatever-cloud-service?

    Great point.

    If it is hard for me, what hope do others have?

    Totally.

    So even if the information is around and not lost, how to find it? This was an issue in Medieval Europe too, old scrolls and books just laying in a jumble which no one knew, or cared, to know what they were.

    During the Renaissance, this problem was tackled programmatically through a variety of specialized roles:

    * ARCHIVISTS were responsible for determining how content would be stored for the long-haul, and built upon the ancient library science and started creating standards for preservation, categorization, and reference.

    * CHRONICLERS reviewed all of the news of the ages and built abridged histories, or Chronicles, of the time, including extentive reference to content that had been archived for future generations to conduct follow-up research.

    * HISTORIANS became the scholars that reviewed the chronicles and cross-referenced with what archivists, and lesser librarians, had stored, in order to produce more 'modern' retrospectives and studies on what really happened and what the impact of what happened was.

    We need similar roles for the new digital age. And I am not really convinced that the Internet Archive has a true archival, chronicling, and historiographic practice for their resspective domains.
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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Kaelon on Wednesday, July 20, 2022 09:33:54
    Re: Preserving Digital History
    By: Kaelon to Boraxman on Tue Jul 19 2022 05:42 am

    During the Renaissance, this problem was tackled programmatically through a variety of specialized roles:

    * ARCHIVISTS were responsible for determining how content would be stored for the long-haul, and built upon the ancient library science and started creating standards for preservation, categorization, and reference.

    * CHRONICLERS reviewed all of the news of the ages and built abridged histories, or Chronicles, of the time, including extentive reference to content that had been archived for future generations to conduct follow-up research.

    * HISTORIANS became the scholars that reviewed the chronicles and cross-referenced with what archivists, and lesser librarians, had stored, in order to produce more 'modern' retrospectives and studies on what really happened and what the impact of what happened was.

    We need similar roles for the new digital age. And I am not really convinced that the Internet Archive has a true archival, chronicling, and historiographic practice for their resspective domains.
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    Agree, but who? Private interests may do it, but likely to monetise it, or not be interested because there isn't a quick return. Churhes? Monasteries?

    I think the solution is custody. Who owns the information, how is it transferred. A way to transfer the public contents of a server before you decommission it. A way for people who are done maintaining their sites to simply hand it over to archivists. This would be more a cultural shift than a technological one.

    We will resolve this issue, but not without a significant period inbetween where a lot of digital information was just thrown to the wind.

    There are already questions about how to handle social media accounts after people die, who takes ownership and such, and I think this problem neatly extends to the one we are discussing.

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  • From Kaelon@VERT to Boraxman on Tuesday, July 19, 2022 16:53:36
    Re: Preserving Digital History
    By: Boraxman to Kaelon on Wed Jul 20 2022 09:33 am

    I think the solution is custody. Who owns the information, how is it transferred. A way to transfer the public contents of a server before you decommission it. A way for people who are done maintaining their sites to simply hand it over to archivists. This would be more a cultural shift than a technological one.

    This is a great idea! Chain of custody arrangements would certainly be in line with many of our legal and institutional practices. Could we formalize this so that the cultural shift is embedded in technological practices? And how would we contend with the evergreen economic interests that no doubt would prevail? A fascinating proposition, indeed!

    There are already questions about how to handle social media accounts after people die, who takes ownership and such, and I think this problem neatly extends to the one we are discussing.

    Another great observation! I think you are absolutely right; there are very compatible applications between the memorialization of the deceaseds' social media accounts and the need to preserve human knowledge beyond the digital conundrum in which we have found ourselves.
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  • From Boraxman@VERT/MINDS3 to Kaelon on Wednesday, July 20, 2022 16:14:57
    Re: Preserving Digital History
    By: Kaelon to Boraxman on Tue Jul 19 2022 04:53 pm

    This is a great idea! Chain of custody arrangements would certainly be in line with many of our legal and institutional practices. Could we formalize this so that the cultural shift is embedded in technological practices? And how would we contend with the evergreen economic interests that no doubt would prevail? A fascinating proposition, indeed!

    Another great observation! I think you are absolutely right; there are very compatible applications between the memorialization of the deceaseds' social media accounts and the need to preserve human knowledge beyond the digital conundrum in which we have found ourselves.
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    It could be done with some containerisation. A basic static web page is already 'containerised' in that you simply need to transfer the filesystem heirarchy. More complex ones could have export and import automated. I have migrated web pages from server to server and it is something which could be futher automated.

    I could imagine a cPanel option where you can nominate where the site is archived to. Facebook and Google allow you to export your data already. We're mostly there, it is the standardisation of process and interface and creation of formal agreements. Or the nominated archive could simply be pushed an access token that allows it access, similar to how you may have someone as a github collaborator. Cloud based accounts could work similar.

    Peoples 'offline' data is a harder challenge.

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